Comments from some of you have led me to rethink my initial position on the IndyCar engine spec announcement for 2012.
I confess that I know very little about the technology that makes Indy cars go. Frankly, technology for its own sake does not interest me. What does interest me - and what I believe is far more important than the spec itself - is technology's impact on three crucial marketing questions.
- Does it enhance on-track competition?
- Will it significantly reduce the cost of entry to correspond with the product's market value?
- Does it increase the probability of adding American drivers who might be more easily sold to U.S. motorsports consumers?
Personally, I could see IndyCar allowing 4-cylinder engines and/or engines that come in under 2.4 liters extra boost pressure, a larger air restrictor or extra fuel flow. They kind of left that door open in the announcement... To my mind, this relatively open spec for small displacement turbo engines has been the way to go all along for the 2012 car, and to me it sounds like they're picking the route that will spark the most interest from manufacturers and fans alike.Citizen John addressed my second and third questions. As usual, he brought relevant facts to the discussion.
Provided they are interested in participating, Mazda is one of few marques who could answer the call for 2012 with an existing product. Their 2.0L MZR-R sports car engine, now in its fourth year of service, already uses alternative fuels... without the restrictor, reaching the stated ceiling of 700 hp would not be an issue.And my favorite part.
While the 2010 version of an MZR-R lease agreement is still being debated, it could be similar to what MAZDASPEED offered in 2008 and 2009: a three-year lease for one engine, including all electronics and ancillaries, for $60,000 the first year, $50,000 the second and $40,000 the third. With two or three engine rebuilds added in the $35K apiece range, you still walk out the door around the $150K range each year.The prospect warms my heart.
Therefore, I shall reserve judgment as the circumstances evolve. If Speedgeek and Citizen John are correct, then it could well be that IndyCar is effectively utilizing the 2012 spec to address its ample marketing challenges.
We can hope.
Roggespierre
RP,
ReplyDeleteAs for second thoughts about the general details of engines that will be permitted, you should not have any.
This is the type of inclusive formula that should have been adopted long ago, and a variety of packages could already be participating.
The roadblock has apparently been that the IRL is waiting for manufacturer involvement to shoulder the development cost of an alternate power plant, and pay for the privilege of competing in the Series as well.
Yesterday was nothing more than a public announcement of the private discussions the IRL initiated with auto manufacturers two years ago. Sure there has been some interest, and suggestions from suppliers about what package they would prefer. But all there has been is discussion, and there is no indication of anything more.
When I started looking into 4 cylinder engine options, I was surprised to find several which had already benefitted from extensive development programs and were being used in other racing categories.
The AER engine that John speaks about is one of three. That one is an example which has undergone extensive re-manufacturing, testing, modification for increased power and durability, and the development of an engine management system required for its installation.
GM initiated a similar development program with the 4 cyl. Ecotec turbo in 2002. Three current independent racing engine builders have told me that meeting the required performance demands and price constraints is completely feasible with the Ecotec. One of the builders described details of the six month testing they had just completed on a new turbocharger. That turbo's performance exceeded the $30,000 Garrett unit they had been using, and would be available for about $5,000.
Olsberg Motorsport Evolution in Sweden has conducted a similar development program to produce a killer Ford Duratec 2.0 liter turbo. Former Indy 500 winner Kenney Brack has competed with this engine in rally car competition. Perhaps some X Games fans who watched him would be interested to learn that the same engine would soon be racing for the 500 crown.
In these examples, the heavy lifting...and investment...has been done. While modifying the engines and management systems for IndyCar is not a simple task, it is one of adaptation and not "clean sheet" creation.
Hasselgren Engines does not have a current product suitable for IndyCar use, but they expressed interest in the concept. I'm sure that other independents would listen, and perhaps there are others with suitable powerplants already developed. Nobody has asked.
Brian Barnhart mentioned "reference engines" when talking about establishing equivalent performance regulations for various engine architectures. That is similar to the plan I had come up with to invite all comers.
(Continued below)
Andy
(continued)
ReplyDeleteInstead of roundtable discussions with reluctant manufacturers, my proposal was to invite actual engine builders. Not to the table, but to the dyno room to demonstrate their existing products.
Along with invitations to the builders I mentioned, the notice would be sent industry-wide. Six months lead time, bring what you got and we're going to test it. Supply a spec sheet, cost analysis, and production capability estimate. Run it wide open for two hours, quantify the power output and durability, and THEN sit down at the table to talk.
So maybe Keith Iaia at Revolution Racing Engines brings a turbo version of his midget Ecotec Engine, and can supply 30 per year. AER has the goods and can do the same. Maybe a small builder like Olsberg has the construction covered, but can't possibly produce the quantity: that's a case where Ilmor, or Penske, or a capable manufacturer can buy the rights to the existing product and punch them out.
Under that scenario, a manufacturer does not have to start from scratch with a complete development program. They simply get a phonecall to see if they are interested in paying for the badging on one of their products for competition at the Indy 500. No lifting required.
Had Chip Ganassi financed a program like this in 2009, instead of re-inventing four wheels, the first Dallara/Ecotec could have been rolled out at Barber testing in February. Sell the installation hardware to other teams, and they can source or build their own 4 cyl.
Equivalency for peak output measured in the dyno room is easy to establish, and the specs and cost of each engine design are fixed for one season. Lease or purchase, teams negotiate their best deal with the builder of their choice or start their build program to produce their own engine to the particular approved spec. of their choice.
So where did the IRL get it wrong? First, they could have made yesterday's announcement years ago. Second, they made no provision for continued use of the existing Honda V8 beyond 2011. Those engines, and the chassis which they power, will be out of the game.
With 575 HP from a turbo 4 cylinder, matching power to weight ratios with the current Honda in the Dallara requires only minor equivalency. That concept enables small budget teams to remain in competition with their old gear until the wheels fall off, or they can upgrade and still have a saleable investment for a start-up team.
Dallara/Honda V8 vs. Dallara/ turbo. Different power curves and fuel consumption rates, aero profiles, visual shape and sound. An evolutionary chassis to add to the grid in 2012. Teams able to upgrade their engine program as a transition step, then install their engine in their new chassis as finances permit.
None of that variety, or option to defer investment costs, are incorporated in the IRL plan announced yesterday. The same identical race cars will be used for at least 2010 and 2011. Big mistake.
(continued below)
(post 3 of 3)
ReplyDeleteIf the new Honda...or any other alternate...is not available or permitted until 2012, the wait continues for the new chassis. I doubt it would be financially viable for teams to then retrofit the Dallara, when they know the new chassis is expected any month.
So the existing engines, and the 80 plus existing chassis, will be worthless. The grid will be composed only of teams that can afford a new chassis, spare chassis, engine and spare parts for each of their entrants.
Will there be 20 new cars on the grid in Brazil for 2012...or 2013, if anticipated delays come to a worst case? If so, that will take a lot of new investment. Many teams cannot afford to run the cars they already own now. Vision. Rahal/ Letterman. Fazzt has four cars, and can field only one and scraped together enough cash for a one-off. There are cars already bought and paid for, with no operating capital to race them.
Increasing revenue for a sport which is demonstrating a continued decline in popularity is a job that is not being done. It's nice to hope that will change, same as it is nice to hope that Ford Racing will drop $20M to build a racing engine program for a Series that is gaining no traction.
Nothing has changed, at least nothing for the better. Not the way it is being done now.
Andy
Wrench:
ReplyDeleteDrewblank@hotmail.com
Agreed on Kurt Warner. It takes a big stage before a big performance makes a big star.
Andy
Didn't Randy Bernard allow a couple months ago that grandfathering either the Dallara chassis or a Dallara-Honda Indy V8 package (I can't remember which) was quite possible? I wouldn't have expected that to show up in yesterday's release, as it would have only muddied the waters and distracted from the new formula.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't worry about those small team owners not being able to find a voice to let their concerns be known to Randy. They know where to find him.
For all the things yesterdays announcement didn't say, it did say no V8's.
ReplyDeleteMr. Bernard listens to the Iconic panel, and that was their determination.
Andy
That said, I'm not convinced it's a dead issue. If the car owners of a third or more of the field were to all show up at Randy's office at once to tell him "there's no way we can afford new engines and new chassis; if you make us do that, we will go out of business", I can't imagine there's any way he'll tell them to pound sand. He knows full well that if we were to dip below 20 cars, the spectacle of the series diminshes by a huge amount, and it would look terrible to bankrupt a third of your owners at one time. He'll be left with three options: 1) allow them to use the Dallara with a new engine (which should be cheaper than the Honda V8, whatever it is), 2) allow them to use the Dallara with the existing engine (this assumes that somebody will support the engines), or 3) find a way to financially support those teams through the transition, either through finding them sponsors or by direct subsidization. I'm inclined to think that they'll settle on option #1, as long as they can find somebody to fab up an adapter kit for a reasonable price.
ReplyDeleteI'd expect some announcements to this end probably 6-9 months from now, after the furor of the new car dies down just a bit.
Zat right? It's more likely that a third or more owners in the field are going to all show up at Randy's office and say, "We're racing the Delta Wing, and you're out of luck".
ReplyDeleteCuz that's the group with the money and power...the guys wanting to hang onto their old gear are stringers.
Andy
Andrew is correct !!! The money players determine the rules. CART was living proof of it in the 80's. It tossed small team after small team until only a handful of owners controlled the game. Like this is going to be any different? Highly unlikely! If the leases don't show up and the engines are "you buy you own" then you can challenge the status quo as more small teams will play if they control their own fate. If it is "you lease from me or else" the answer is clear already. Some will, most won't. I think small teams are getting tired of paying for someone else and their profit margins. As I and Andrew have stated earlier....700hp 4 cylinder turbo at projected specifications, maximum price... 40 grand and you get to keep it!!! If you think I am kidding, I will ask RP to allow me a column devoted to the subject, along with a detailed list of past and present 4 cylinder engines that will meet the criteria.
ReplyDeleteOMG Wrench, it just hit me...
ReplyDeleteI buy the Falcon, you build the EcoBoost, and we have...
A FORD FALCON!!!!! Menard can sponsor it, and we'll put woodgrain appliques on the sidepods.
Seriously, 700 HP was more than I has asked about, and $40K was more than was suggested it would take. But it only works if they truly open the doors, and don't over-regulate superior inovation. Delicate but possible... when fair play is the yardstick, not stacks of cash.
I Am Minion
Just the point Andrew. You stated simply the same that I have...open rules. Same for the beloved Falcon! It only needs some attention that a few (that is less than five people) qualified indviduals can massage it to life and meet the current safety rules. Like you stated toss in an EcoBoost, add the gearbox of your choice and you head to the qualify line!!! And yes people....it CAN be done. IF the rules will permit it!
ReplyDeleteWhich all begs a question...Is Randy Bernard playing the rube, or fronting for the big boys as they unfold this game? Clearly he knows more about bulls than horsepower.
ReplyDeleteYou got it Rocketman!!! Now as the saying goes...."We wait and see!"
ReplyDeleteI don't understand this. Yesterday (and today) you guys were advocating that the teams jettison personnel, because paying a dozen or so guys $500k total or so was too much (though I really don't know how you can run a professional race team in 2010 for much cheaper than that; and remember, my costs didn't include health care, which is probably another 10-15% more cash toward personnel). Now, you're insisting that the small teams want to be able to own and tune their own engines? So, let me get this straight: engineers and DAGs are now (apparently, if I read the other thread correctly) all but banned (however you can enforce such a thing, because I don't think that banning data acquisition is going to make engineers go away by itself). Every team is still going to need probably 3-4 mechanics per car just on the chassis side (and maybe more; I personally think you guys are vastly underestimating the number of people that maintaining these cars takes), and now you're going to need at least another 2 guys to do the engine work (part checks, rebuilds, etc.). Plus, every shop that wants to do their own thing is going to have to install, maintain and run a dyno cell. Um...doesn't that sort of ruin the whole idea behind cutting costs? And won't you still need an electrical guy (who I had in my earlier roster lineup doubling as the DAG), because any engine is still going to have looms and an ECU? I don't see how we've saved any money at all.
ReplyDeleteAnd to my point from a few comments ago: I know that the rich guys are the ones who will have the most influence on the rules, but if Gil de Ferran, Alex Tagliani, Sarah Fisher, Dale Coyne, Keith Wiggins, Bernie Haas and Eric Bachelart all showed up in Randy's office and said "we can't afford new chassis; either we get to run the Dallara or we're all out", Randy wouldn't have to listen? Wouldn't the series look pretty bad falling back to car counts in the 15-16 range? You don't think that would get Randy's attention?
I keep mulling this from Cavin's feature on Bernard of 5/28:
ReplyDeleteBernard isn't a member of the group, per se, and hasn't yet been on the job three months, but he knows where he's going. New cars will come only when the competitors can afford them.
"I knew drivers, but I didn't know cars," he said. "You're going to replace them every four or five years, and there's not enough time to build a brand like we did (with) the bulls. So we've got to focus on the drivers, and we are."
Is he speaking for himself, I wonder.
Personel cost money! Some teams large or small CAN run and build their own equipment. People like George Bignotti, AJ Watson and such ran Indy Cars on a 2-4 man team. With today's technology it can be done. You may not run every race but if it allows more teams to compete, you get more cars at races. The tech is not that tough for skilled people. It is a matter of allowing teams to control their own costs...not the sanctioning body,engine suppliers (Factories dictating price) or chassis builders (that mandate you run their parts not parts you can build).It is all about control, the control of money and who gets it! Not about insuring small teams can be profitable.
ReplyDeleteTo Geek:
ReplyDeleteAs an outsider, there is no way for me to know the specific duties of 20 plus crew members for a one car effort to race a spec race car.
In a Series where most vehicle components are strictly regulated, it is hard for me to envision the need for several fabricators, for instance. If a team like Penske has staff involved in the design, fabrication and testing of front wing endplates, I'd call that a huge waste of manpower. They do, and it is.
With the current engine lease program, I don't see how a crew chief and five mechanics would have difficulty handling all aspects of race prep. Add another as electronics specialist who also handles I/T for telemetry. One engineer, two transporter drivers/ grunts who manage the tires and pit equipment.
Lease engines from an independant supplier, that means adding one tuner/systems technician. Build and dyno your own engines: add two more at the race shop.
The broad point about "bang for the buck" is this: with the current level of data acquisition and engineering, say the pole speed on a road course is 1:10.500. All the other competitors have to monitor and analyze data at the same level to remain competitive.
Or, everybody throws two guys off the timing stand and two more out of the trailer, and ditches most of their computer power.
Now, the pole speed is 1:11.800. Are the fans going to stay away in droves? Not if the racing is still competitive.
When I was an insider, data acquisition was a tire pyrometer, zip ties around the shock absorber pistons and a ruler to measure suspension travel, a stop watch, a calculator.
Funny thing was, I never worked on a team that had a race car run out of fuel with a lap and 1/4 to go in a race. Or had a car suffer a non-contact rear suspension failure.
In house, we dyno'ed and tuned leased DFX's. Built wings (aluminum) and fabricated all manner of minor components. The crew chief was always working on turbo and wastegate mods, and testing tunnel profile models on a flow bench. Staff of ten total, which included two weekend warriors.
It's rocket science if you want it to be, and have the money to play the game. Or, it's prepping and racing cars. John's point about shock tuning is a perfect example of the difference.
If you want a little glimpse into the state of that art, check out the rocket science in the link below. It will give you an idea about how to shave a few tenths off of that road course lap time, and how it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars to make your spec car that much faster than my spec car.
I Am Minion
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090171532
Here's a video that demonstrates the basics of the rocket science. I'll tell you as much else as I know, if you need more. There is a lot I don't.
ReplyDeleteI Am Minion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTx9ECUjHZM
Who cares about future engines.
ReplyDeleteThe best American driver in the series (which isn't saying much) is about to lose his job after Saturday night's race. The guy who is the IZOD spokesman. The only American to win a race in this series in the last few years.
No Americans, no interest, no sponsors (more then half the entries in the league don't have a primary sponsor), no ratings and fewer and fewer fans at most REAL (i.e, not street festivals that don't have actual race fans) race tracks.
We may not even get to 2012, so which engine chosen may not even matter.
This is dipping back into the discussion that we were having the other day (the one where I laid out some extremely rough team costs), but it’s a discussion that’s worth having.
ReplyDeleteUsing Andy’s and Oldwrench’s model (limited electronics, teams own and develop their own engines), here’s how I see things working out. This is for a part-time, shoestring 1-car team running about 5 races per year.
Team Manager - $75,000 (I just can’t see a guy like this working for much less; he’s probably been in the sport 10+ years)
Engineer - $75,000 (ditto)
Chief Mechanic - $60,000 (ditto the above two, and I just gave him a massive pay cut since a couple days ago)
Mechanic/Fabbie/Truckie/Electrical/Whatever (catch-all guys; you probably need 5 of these guys) - $40,000 each - $200,000 total
Right here, with no weekend warriors in the equation, the team owner and driver not drawing paychecks and no health care or benefits included, we’re right back at $410,000. I’ll continue the exercise.
Continued below.
Shop lease - $2,000 per month (assuming a small shop) - $24,000 per year
ReplyDeleteTruck lease - $1,000 per month (assuming a pretty small truck and trailer) - $12,000 per year
Shop equipment/maintenance - $25,000 per year
Chassis depreciation (assuming that you’d ideally buy a new chassis every 5 years, but you’ll probably write one off on average once every two years; also assuming cheap, cheap chassis in 2012) - $125,000 per year
Engine running budget/development – a conservative $200,000 per year
Tire bill – ($1,000 per set x 4 sets per weekend x 5 races; assuming that tires get a lot harder and way, way cheaper) $20,000 per year
Spares budget - $100,000 (crossing our fingers for not knocking off too many wings, corners, bodywork, etc.)
Travel - $2,250 per guy ($300 each for airfare, $150 each for hotel per weekend with guys sharing rooms; also have to add in costs for team owner and driver, but leave out airfare for the two guys driving the truck) - $19,500
I’m going to stop right here for the sake of my sanity. What we’ve got is a team with no data acquisition, no sophisticated electronics, their own engines, only running 5 races per year. Total budget? $935,500.
Yet more, continued below, and I apologize for the length of this novella. Too much floating around in the ol' noodle...
Are these numbers all correct? Probably not. They might be low. They might be high, but I doubt that they’re more than 10-20% high. But, I have two points:
ReplyDelete1) A small team is at least as likely to pay $200-250,000 to a Hasslegren or an Ed Pink or whoever to lease an engine package from. Why? Because if I can pay an extra $50,000 over what it’d cost me to own and develop my own engines, but then I don’t have to pay 1-2 guys to do the development for me, then it’s worth it. Plus, if I develop my own engine and go down the wrong road, now I’m the slowest car on the grid. If I lease from somebody reputable, though, I’m guaranteed to at least be competing directly with the guys who are also leasing from the same outfit. Also, if I lease and there’s a fault that causes a failure, I can get a replacement for free or reduced cost. Blow your own engine? You’re paying for it.
2) It is expensive to run any kind of business nowadays, even if it’s a bookstore or coffee shop. It may have been possible to run a part-time IndyCar team for under $500,000 25-30 years ago, but I think those days are long gone. People gotta pay mortgages and feed their families. Hotel rooms don’t cost $39.99 anymore (not anywhere you don’t want your car broken into, anyway). Diesel is probably triple what it cost 20 years ago, and continues to go up.
To the original point, reducing costs is obviously a good thing. But, there’ll be a limit where you can’t reduce costs anymore. On the other hand, the potential to grow revenue is far higher than the potential to cut costs. It’s a long way away, and we’re only taking baby steps, but I think that there could be a day again in a couple of years when a smallish 2-car team can approach a potential sponsor and ask for $4 million dollars with a straight face again.
@Bob White,
ReplyDeleteI guess you're not putting any stock into my argument that I gave you the other day at Pressdog's (when you posted basically this same comment) that cheaper engines will hopefully allow teams to hire whoever they want? Or that manufacturers may want more Americans in the series when they show up in 2012? No? Oh, OK.
Speedgeek,
ReplyDeleteOne can run a full F2 season for $500K. Yes, the cars aren't quite as fast as an IndyCar and yes they don't run as many events or miles in a season, but the idea of running a car similar to IndyCar for $1MM/yr. I feel is completely confirmed by what they're doing in F2.
And they're achieving their target price not by signifigantly altering the car or its performance. The savings are a direct result of eliminating engineering along with economy of scale and division of labor with operations.
Whether we could sell such a model as IndyCar is another matter, but all the speculation that it can't be done for $1MM/yr. flies in the face of what is and has been done.
-John
Yeah, but, John, I don't really see the F2 comparison as an apples-to-apples one (though maybe that's what you're going for, as a complete break from the longstanding IndyCar paradigm). All of the F2 cars are absolutely identical (right down to the last nut and bolt) and they're all run out of the same shop, therefore using massive economies of scale - the same couple dozen guys maintaining all the cars, transporting them all together, using spare parts out of one huge bin of identical spares, etc. The fans (basically every single one that I've heard) have been clamoring for IndyCar to run briskly away from spec racing, and I don't think that much of anything that IndyCar and its teams does can touch those sorts of economies of scale (would we run the entire IndyCar field out of one massive shop? Could we?). And if you ran those cars with higher power (maybe more like 550 than 450 HP) and ran them higher amounts of miles (like what an actual IndyCar season does), the budget for a season is liable to creep back toward $1 million anyway, even with all of those other savings. Yes, they've pretty well eliminated engineering in that you have one engineer per 2-3 cars (I forget the actual ratio) on race weekends, but I'd say that their main cost savings are things that could never be imitated by IndyCar. Well, I suppose you could imitate those things, but I fear that the result would be something that 90% of fans (that's current and potential) may reject right out of hand.
ReplyDeleteSpeedgeek,
ReplyDeleteHenry Ford broke the then current manufacturing modus operandi with the Model T. The cars were of lower quality and less diverse than what the then current auto consumer market was used to, wanted or expected. We know the result. And that result came not from listening to what current consumers wanted but by envisioning what a much larger and untapped market wanted and then figuring out how to best serve that unseen market.
Every company talks about the importance of listening to their current customers, but they're really listening for ideas, not for what the customers want. We all know what consumers want: more for less. But we can't always give them that and remain in business.
Further, customers never want the quality or benefits derived from a product to be diminished or reduced. Doesn't mean they won't still buy, though. And it doesn't mean if you diminish or reduce a product in one area to increase it in another, you won't find more potential customers out there in the marketplace. There's a ton of business success stories that came from doing just that.
Anyway, the boss wanted a $2.99 Big Mac and the F2 model is the best I can do with what he's paying me. Personally, I think his price point is a little low and we could probably get away with putting a little more meat on the bun, but we'll have to wait and see how his demand curve shapes up.
-John
John,
ReplyDeleteF2 is nine race weekends at circuits in relatively close proximity with dead nuts identical spec cars.
That is a better comparator to a glorified Jim Russell Racing School Championship than it is an international top tier racing series.
Here is a tiny example to illustrate the massive differences:
F2 cars are identically mass-prepared,in a single shop by a single crew, loaded onto transport and delivered to a track.
Penske runs three cars in a 500 mile event, has to truck them back to North Carolina, turn them around in two days, and truck them to Texas for a 340 mile race.
Give me a break.
Geek, you can make yourself crazy trying to guess the bottom line, and it isn't necessary. People are either going to accept the fact that a sizable minimum investment is necessary, or they are going to call for the replacement of Major League play with double A ball.
This is a revenue problem, which should include a spending cap (or profit sharing) to insure equity. It is not purely a cost containment problem that can be substantially changed by massive cuts.
Maybe you can cut costs by 25% without seriously affecting the quality of the entertainment product. Effective promotion of good racing can close the shortfall in far less time.
Bernard knows this is a revenue problem. It is one of the few conclusions he has gotten right so far.
The question remains how current promotion will be effective, when it is demonstrating no results. And how long the entertainment product will remain unchanged, as there is nothing but delays to anticipate as a result of complacency to enact immediate improvements, and undefined speculation about the changes promised for the future.
Andy
I Am Minion
I'm not sure why you don't use IndyLights as the exemplar. Cheaper spec cars, reduced schedule. No one watches, car counts are still low as the investors can't be found.
ReplyDeleteFormula Nippon has less than 15 cars on the grid, little domestic interest, and zero U.S. recognition. Sort of like the A1GP model, which is closer to what you are advocating than F2 is. That didn't work, either.
Here is the summary of the shock absorber info, since nobody cared.
1) Fit race car with load and motion sensors, track test and generate a telemetry map
2)Rent expensive time at a test facility (or build your own facility in-house).
2)Load track map telemetry into shaker rig actuator control.
3) Fit active dampers to the race car to monitor
load, velocity and temperature inputs.
4) Remotely adjust damping characteristics with the active damping to optimize tire contact patch and chassis stability, and generate a performance map.
4) Use this performance map to calculate spring rates, and to adjust the low speed and high speed circuits within the passive shocks you will use on your race car for that particular circuit.
5) Map the performance of the passive shocks on a proprietary test rig to verify the damping levels and compare them to the map generated by the active shocks on the shaker rig.
6)Install passive shocks and Go Racing. If all of this was dead nuts accurate, you would never see a team changing spring rates and shocks at the race track. They do it all the time.
7) The ultimate goal of this excercise? Maintaining constant ride height through all track conditions. Because the ground effect downforce is relied on as an essential element for grip, you have to keep the chassis low and level. Too low and you lose downforce. Too high and you lose downforce and add drag. Too much pitch or yaw, and the center of downforce pressure changes. Unstable race car.
8) Optimizing the mechanical grip from the tire contact patch is also the goal, just as it has been since people started racing on baloon tires.
9) Time for the next race? Do it all again. The telemetry, and the shock valving, is largely non-transferable.
If you legislate a reduction in ground effect downforce, you minimize the requirement for near perfect ride height control. That's what F1 did, long ago.
If you legislate a reduction in off-track testing (shaker rig and wind tunnel time), or the number of sensors you can use on the race car to collect telemetry, the game changes.
That's the simple picture of the shock issue as best as I understand it. Corrections welcomed.
Andy
I Am Losing Yaw Control.
And we're back to basic principles again. Exactly who/what is this IICS? Is a "league" in the sense of the NFL, or a competition framework for independent teams?
ReplyDeleteIf the former there are a number of things that can be done, from "spreading the wealth" by limiting financials, eliminating the traditional purse, rotating sponsors and drivers, imposing a "luxury tax", or run an equipment pool where teams draw chassis and engines by lot a week before each race.
If this is indeed a business, and not a hobby or write-off, profits need to be found. You can cut costs in equipment procurement, maintenance, transportation, personnel, or anywhere there are costs. And/or, one can rearrange the internals, how the money is distributed internally.
Perhaps, for example, revenues and allowable expenses could be pooled across teams/cars. Perhaps "franchises" would draft available drivers, all paid on a scale with bonuses for winning. "Buy a ride" money would be paid to the league. Why must this "league" be all independent contractors?
Andy's post about three up from here is where I was going with my whole OCD breakdown of costs. And I did address his whole thing with shock dynos and shaker rigs in my first attempt at a comment here this morning, that got lost when I hit "post comment" and everything got zapped into the ether. In my haste to re-write what I wrote, I forgot my comments there.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, Andy, shaker rigs and shock dynos add basically nothing to the sport. I feel like data acquisition systems (since they can actually be used on the car as it runs around a track) are OK, but I see where people might not care for what they do for costs as well. I'm more or less willing to concede there, or like you say, advocate a maximum number of channels you can use in a telemetry system (tire pressures, we probably oughta keep, for instance). The tricky part is trying to figure out how to write the rules to put the engineering genie back in the bottle. Not to say that they shouldn't try to cram the genie back in the bottle, though. It'd be a good call to try to slash wind tunnel time and all of the other stuff, no matter how much Roger and Chip scream. The response to that screaming is, of course, "you guys want a series to race in? Or you just wanna race each other for one more year until we close up shop completely? Your choice. Here's some copies of some tapes of GTP races from 1993 for you to watch while you make your decision."
A couple relative points I'd like to interject:
ReplyDeleteThe first is that the product failure rate is extremely high amongst companies that allow their engineers to design the product. The techies are notorious for overloading a product with technology and utilities that the end-user finds little or no benefit which often results in a product at price point the market won't bear.
The second point is that while we may conclude the current IndyCar fan won't accept or will reject an F2 like product, we can't logically conclude the entire potential market will likewise reject the product. We all know Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but we can't make a similar claim in regard to race drivers because the cars get in the way. Well, maybe there's an untapped market that would like to know who the fastest driver in the world is; maybe a market that's larger than the one that wants to see the fastest car win. We don't know because no racing series has really delved into that market. Sure we've had IROC, obscure start-up series and feeder series running equal cars, but no series with the brand equity the 500 still commands. An astute marketing strategist might find a way to flank NASCAR and F1 by positioning IndyCar as definitively having the fastest and best drivers.
-John
If arena football quarterbacks and Usain Bolt are the keys used here to finding an astute marketing strategy for IndyCar, I owe Mr. Bernard an apology for wasting his valuable time. As if he is reading this.
ReplyDeleteAndy
Stirring Empty Pots
I don't think that the F2/IROC thing is going to work on two levels, though.
ReplyDelete1) It's not just IndyCar fans that have grown fed up with spec car-type racing. Folks have started to tune out NASCAR, and judging from many of the comments that I've read and calls to Wind Tunnel that I've heard, a big reason for that is the new car, which is only distinguishable between brands by sticker packages. People also hated the wing on the back of the car, but from what I've heard, the re-introduction of the rear spoiler hasn't helped their ratings at all. From everything that I've heard from current fans, and the people who I've talked to who don't currently watch IndyCar because it's a spec series, if we go spec series again, we're probably done.
2) Part of our current problem with cars not being able to pass each other is that the entire field (backmarkers and all) are covered by a ridiculously tight margin, speed-wise. This year's field at Indy was covered by just under 2%, from top to bottom (i.e. 33rd was 98% as fast as the guy on pole). Leaders can't even pass lapped traffic without taking some big risks, with the cars so close to each other in speed. I also think that if the next group of cars can't pass each other, we're probably done.
My opinoins. I appreciate the attempt to get outside of the current box, though.
Speedgeek: Your statement may be accurate in relation to those that have watched Indy Car, but...(there's that word again) Why would you want the premier series in your country to be nothing more than a expensive copy of a lesser series? If people are scared of higher speeds you simply put a Sonic orfice in front of the turbo and that alone will clamp the speeds. It is the facts that Andrew promotes that I agree upon. How is anyone going to beat a team that spends millions on redesigning mirrors? And for what, a lousy .001 of a second? If that were the case then we will be like F1 and have budgets exceeding 1 Billion. Now, who is going to spend that figure if they can't get sponsors now? Having options that permit small teams to test new ideas can be justified if the sponsor is promoting new technology. Best example...Andrew & Oldwrench buy the Falcon, We build the Ecoboost but we add a new twist, a revolutionary part that makes old dogs sing and dance. Now, if that part fits the sponsor profile of a company like GE (Aerospace) they promote it as part of their new ideas program and how forward thinking GE & its associates are. (Andrew/Oldwrench) That give us a foot in the door. Under the present rules and possible future "spec rules". They won't touch it. Explain to me how many IZOD's can you have in a series? How can Rita's Water Ice benefit?? You can't justify the cost of some sponsorship anyway other than promotion. But you can jusitify R&D cost if you have the costs inline with the value of the series. Right now, none of it is. I see your point but I still believe that you have to let people shake the rafters, blow parts to kingdom come and yes, create risk that involves the "possiblity" of fatalities. I don't like the latter either but the one aspect of racing that has brought people to this sport is the element of danger. I just don't want another spec series either. If it looks like the same thing with a new body you will kill it for good.
ReplyDeleteThat does it.
ReplyDeleteI'm writing Barnhart to see if the Falcon chassis was approved.
Think I'll get an answer?
Andy
Seeking sponsors
Jim Freudenberg, no thanks
I will call tommorow and place the order!!!
ReplyDeleteShould we get a Reynard for back up???
I'm serious...if that was approved for the 2003 spec, all it will need is a curved skid and the vertical body spine added.
ReplyDeleteInstead of a backup, we need this roller: it's one of the old BK Racing ALMS Lolas. That gets us a gearbox, chassis components and engine ancillaries to hang on the Falcon tub. Forget the Mazda, we'll use your motor.
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We need RP to negotiate Mr. Bach's price point down a little though.
Andy
Home remortgage candidate
The car never was approved for use, but it did meet the rules requirements. Best of all...I know where the complete original car is and the blueprints for it. As for your Idea, why do you think I have been for open rules for so long? The only difference between you and I Andrew is my hair is a little grayer!!! Your thought line is right in line with mine!! The parts are out there and if you have the nuts to go and take a chance, I think this thing can be put in the show with a little cash and some hard work. Neither is one that I am afraid of!!!
ReplyDeleteOldwrench:
Future loan candidate (if rules change)
Guys,
ReplyDeleteHad the league not required that series sponsorship be paid in exchange for the privilege of supplying engines, then we would not have a spec series now.
I fear that IndyCar is about to make the same mistake. What if Mazda, VW and the others say thanks, but no thanks? Are we stuck with Honda alone? Please, for the love of God, no!
Let Cosworth, Ilmor, and any other private engine builder come to the party. They might just bring costs down and increase competition.
I hope that Bernard has enough sense to let everybody play. Like Oldwrench has said, let's throw the engine suppliers back in the supply chain where they belong!
Best Regards,
Roggespierre
Thats what the future re-mortgage candidate and I have been saying. You have it peg RP. Now if Indy Car will just listen!!!
ReplyDeleteOldwrench
Future IRA mortgager
'Wrench,
ReplyDeleteI think you and I are in agreement, but I can't really tell. You guys get a little quip-heavy for me around here. Maybe I'm dense, but I can't always tell what point it is that folks are trying to make. I don't understand what "lesser series" you think I want IndyCar to emulate. I never said that I want IndyCar to emulate any other series (in fact, I was arguing AGAINST doing the F2 model), nor did I ever say that I want teams to have to sink a million dollars into mirror development. I did, however, say that if Chip and Roger were to throw a fit about the League banning some of their advantages that add little to no value to the League as a whole(wind tunnel, shaker rig, whatever), then the League should tell them to chill out or they're liable to be running in a 5-car series by themselves because nobody else can afford to run with them.
Sorry, but I think we're at a real disconnect here. I'm not sure we're even talking about the same thing anymore.
Speedgeek,
ReplyDeleteI have a question for you.
What if the rumors are true? What if Brian Barnhart really does want to keep IndyCar a spec series in the foreseeable future?
I'm getting that comment from people who ought to know. I can also tell you that the Delta Wing crowd is not at all pleased with the announcement. In fact, at least one member of ICONIC - the one who happens to be promoting an IndyCar race this weekend - was aware that an announcement was going to be made!
Barnhart has a reputation for being a control freak. In my dealings with him, he has tended to behave as such.
Would a guy who desires control above all else not want to have a spec series? What could be easier to control?
I'm hearing rumors of a renewed Civil War. This one would pit Barnhart and the IMS against the Delta Wing gang. I hope that what I'm hearing is not true, but my source on this is very well connected and has been extremely accurate in the past.
If you have sources that are telling you something different, then I would like to compare notes some time.
Best Regards,
Roggespierre
Correction,
ReplyDeleteThe promoter of this weekend's race was NOT aware that an ICONIC announcement was going to be made.
Roggespierre
That right there, that is a slap to Eddie and SMI. IRL should have invited Robbie Kneivel as a Speedway guest, and plugged his pre-race jump at Texas.
ReplyDeleteNot my kind of promotion, but Gossage thought it was a good idea and these people are supposed to be on the same team.
The ICONIC news could have waited, after Eddie's race and until it actually contained real news.
As for "CART version 3.0"...John Barnes sounded like a unibomber in February. None of the other owners who backed the Delta have made public statements in opposition. Penske expressed reluctance, then reaffirmed his support the other day as John posted.
The bomb was diffused by the dousing of public opinion, or it is still ticking out of earshot.
Wrench, I got a beer for you. Email me at Drewblank@hotmail.com, we have a toast to raise.
Andy
Amateur bartender
Yeah, I haven't heard anything since late-February on the "Barnhart picks the Delta, or we're leaving!" thing. I don't know if that's because people backed away from the ledge since Randy came in (remember, he wasn't even in office yet when the Delta was unveiled) or if they're just being quiet. I guess that's what Andy just said, though.
ReplyDeleteAs for sources...um, blogs? Basically any one you can find on the sidebar of MyNameIsIRL.com (may it rest in peace and/or come back someday)? Articles on SpeedTV.com, meaning Robin Miller and Marshall Pruett (which is who I think said something about an announcement on Saturday, so if Eddie Gossage was surprised by that, he has no excuse)? Curt Cavin? TrackSideOnline? Um, TV coverage ("I watch on Versus...the coverage is excellent")? No special access here. I've never professed to be any kind of insider.
Anyway, if all of the succession talk comes to something, then it's really all over. This isn't 1979 (when CART could go run without opposition from USAC at any road course in the country) or 1996 (when the IRL had a bundle of brand new ovals that they could go run at without CART trying to take dates away from them). If the owners really are talking about leaving...where do they think they're going to go? Not only will they not have Indy (which means that they'd probably be doomed right from the get go), but they (I assume) would not have Long Beach, Mid Ohio, Texas, (possibly) Milwaukee, probably all of the SMI tracks, Barber, the Glen, and likely a bunch of other tracks. Are they planning on running a 10 race series all at Autobahn and Putnam Park? Cozying up with NASCAR (who won't want to help them, because they're not interested in anybody else succeeding)? I just don't see it.
It was never going to be Barnhart's call, so long as the Board realized there was a potential for a split. That might even be why Bernard was brought in, as an intermediary.
ReplyDeleteIf RP heard the whispers, I believe him. They were there before, then off the airwaves. That doesn't mean the issue went away.
Andy
Putnam Park popcorn vendor
I have heard those same voices. They said to me go lawn mower racing because Indy Car is moving in that direction!!!
ReplyDeleteOldwrench
Future Briggs & Stratton Owner!
Nice post.
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